Please use this thread to discuss our new series "Backseat driver". Would be especially interested in your feed-back, and if you guys like the concept of this video.
chris really like the format of the backseat driver videos, do u plan to have other pros do these videos as well in there specialist area ?
one part of your analysis that that i didnt agree with was your criticism of mjws reraise size, as first off all he did not raise to $1.75 but raised to $2, meaning that his reraise was only 3.25x his original open. even if he did raise to $1.75, i think $6.50 is a good reraise size, being 3.7 his original open. my standard reraise OOP is 3.75 my opponents open 100BB deep, as i think that if i make it 3x (which you were suggesting) he can peel profitible in position w/ KTs for example, and also think i have a lot more fold equity when i am 3 betting light opponents who open the button a lot.
i also think you narrowed your opponents range to much, saying that he only he probably only continues w/ AK and TT+, i dont think most opponents are not folding hands like KQ and AJ, thinking they have to defend their cut off open with a hand near the top of their range such as AJ, and against someone 3 betting light a decent percentage (dont know if mjw006 does) it is probably correct to do so.
judging by the other pros on this site, Dani's standard OOP 3 bet is usually 3.75x the opening (11BB to a 3BB open) and ike favours a full 4x 3bet OOP in some of his videos.
also later in the video you say you like his $2.5 reraise to a $0.75 open, 3.3x his opponents raise, even though this is actually a larger reraise in relation to the open.
what is your standard reraise OOP, and do you still critisize the $6.50 reraise to the $2 open, or even a $1.75 open. also what is your standard reraise OOP in relation to your opponents open?
but i think not designed for tournaments, as the Nr of playable hands decreases with shallow stacksizes and becomes somewhat like autoplay ---> boring. Maybe selected hands via replayer would make sense for tournaments and the series then could also easily be categorized in different themes like early /late stages, playing stacksizes, final table play.....
I also would appreciate to analyze difficult hands after the session more mathematically with pokerstove...In this video would be the value of KT vs possible draws and weaker/better value hands on the turn...
PS: H@LLINGOL the only good player with his image at PS, and ADZ doesnt look really diffrent from his in real...
1) Yes - Pros will review videos in their areas of expertise. See 1 post above.
2) If the CO opened to $2 and not $1.75 (my apologies), I do not mind $6.5 as much since our opponents may continue with a looser range. My default is 12xbb vs 3.5x opens.
-To my recollection this was Hero's first 3B at table. Also this is NL 50 - where most players do not 3B wide ranges with any frequency. Villain cannot conclude Hero is 3B light yet - and vs a std 3B range, we WANT our villain peeling KTs - since much of our range dominates here.
-I'm of the belief that very few villains at NL 25/ NL 50 will put you to difficult decisions, as a result i'd be more inclined to keep the pot smaller pre-flop and exploit post-flop advantages.
-I'm also of the belief that people don't tend to peel larger 3Bs with dominated hands as openly as they will slightly smaller 3Bs.
3) Dani and Ike may open to 3.75x + on their 3Bs, but their 3B range is likely wider than MJWs, and their opponents are more likely to put Hero in tough spots post-flop peeling wide. This is not the case at NL 50 IMO.
4) Simple SPR with KK - Based on stack sizes villain cannot peel profitably to set mine for this ammount, but can theoretically for any smaller size.
5) My 3B size is generally 12x the BB regardless of my opponents open if the open is 3x, 3.5x.
-However my 3B size is also position / opponent dependent at the small stakes. If my opponent will peel 14x the BB - i'll make it 14x. If he will only call 10x with the top of his range which i beat - 10x it is.
Is this exploitable? sure! Has anyone expoloited it yet? Nope.
That being said - $6.50 is fine over $2 CO open. I thought he made it $1.75 - in which case i prefer $6.
1) I apologize for not being able to put PokerStove numbers on the screen. I'm a post-production Camtasia donk, but i'll make sure the real pros can get the $ up on the screen.
FWIW
-Hero's equity vs a range of "JTo+ desicribed in video"
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.880% 27.29% 08.59% 5752 1810.00 { KTo }
Hand 1: 64.120% 55.53% 08.59% 11704 1810.00 { JJ, ATs, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo, KTo+, QTo+ }
-Hero's equity vs my perceived range Villains 'Check raising range'
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 18.287% 16.58% 01.70% 2364 243.00 { KTo }
Hand 1: 81.713% 80.01% 01.70% 11406 243.00 { JJ, ATs, KJs+, QJs, ATo, KJo+, QJo }
-Hero's Equity vs Villain's 'OMG I HAS HIGH CARD AND DONT SLOWPLAY' Range
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.572% 51.71% 13.86% 6758 1811.00 { KTo }
Hand 1: 34.428% 20.57% 13.86% 2688 1811.00 { KTs, QTs+, JTs, KTo, QTo+, JTo }
If I were too asume the % he holds each range:
65% C/R Range
25% JTo+ Range
10% OMG range
EDIT: I have yet to find H@E or ADZ sitting at NL 100-NL400 =(
First of all i just want to say thanks for doing that. It was very eye opening and woke me up to a couple of things i can stitch up
On the 3bet sizing early on, i tend to make it that size against the $2 open because i will be OOP post flop, and prefer to nullify the positional edge through pot size a little.
Thankfully you missed a couple of hands where i was playing like a monkey, lol.
And thanks for not berating me much, lol. I am currently still in that god awful downswing and am currently down 10 BI @ 50NL so am back to the 25NL, as you saw it was well started when i did the vid. (my winrate had actually dropped from about 6.5BB/100 3days before hand to 4BB/100 when i did the vid)
On the final hand i actually think i made a bit of a desperate call and in hindsight i think it was prob bad, but worked out good.! lol.
Any more thoughts from everyone are certainly welcome, as you all know, i love you guys!!! (No not that much Alf, i know the gay joke will come).
But again thanks very much Chris, i think you once again have helped me significantly in moving forward!!!
I like the concept alot. It will be helpful for the teachers to evaluate how well students are understanding the material, and serves as a review for the student. Also, it allows for indepth coverage of typical villian's tendencies at a given limit. I got alot out of this video, and look forward to seeing more.
Hey Chris, quick question concerning oop play: A hand occurs for mjw where he defends his SB with AJo to a 16/14's co open. I agree a fold would be correct here against villian's range, but am slightly in the gray area when it comes to being against a LAG opponent. If a 35/30 opens from the co and mjw were to look down at AJo again, what factors determine whether he should call versus 3bet? I know the obvious answer is "is villian capable of calling the 3bet with hands worse than AJo," but if you are 3betting in this spot, what hands are good to throw in as calling against this type of villian? What about a TAG playing 23/19 or something? I have NO idea whether or not to call or 3bet here. I would think a call would be better against the 23/19, but it's hard to really maximize value off an A high flop without turning your hand face up. I sometimes feel that I level myself HARD. PLEASE HELP!
Short of saying "it depends" - i'll start with some basic things to ask yourself:
How does villain play post-flop in 3b pots?
How wide is he defending to 3-bets?
What are his post-flop tendencies? Does he barrel a lot? Does he like to bluff scare cards?
How does he play in position without the lead?
With no history / read - you need to actually put yourself in some of these marginal situations and gain some reads.
If he's 35/30 and super barrel happy, I like flatting AJo. On Axx or Jxx flop, he's going to bet and barrel a lot, so we can c/c down and extract value vs his wide range.
If you 3bet him a few times and he keeps flatting and shows down something marginal, you can 3b AJo for value
--
The truth is there's no clear cut answer for whether we should 3-bet or flat a hand like AJo in the SB vs a CO open.
I'd say vs most people you're best of 3-betting and then betting top pair for value post-flop. Most players are 4-betting AK pre, so AQ is really the only hand you value-cut yourself vs on Axx flop, and on Jxx flops you will stack all worse Jx hands in his range.
However - you sorta need to just make a decision vs an opponent about how you want your overall strategy vs him to be - and go with that.
Hi Chris, I hope you're well
I've got a question having watched part 1 of your Back door driver
video. It's about when to Cbet and when not to Cbet against a loose
passive player. 47 minutes into the video on table 1 we're dealt AJo on
the button and 3 bet the loose passive fish who calls us. Flop comes K86
and he checks. It's a great board for a Cbet as everybody knows and you
approve of the Cbet. But we also know that the fish will not fold a
pair, so is checking also good at this point considering we have
showdown value and opponent is so weak we're not worried about getting
bluffed? I mean against this type of player are we ever gonna get a
better hand (i.e mainly a pair) to fold? or indeed is that a question I
should be asking myself everytime I Cbet?
Having watched Foucalt's flop fundamental series and AMA's LLNLH
essentials series my understandong is that dry flops are good for a
continuation bet against intermediate players, but not against fish
because they call if they have anything as little as bottom pair, and
also not against good thinking players because they recognize it's a dry
board and that you're likely to Cbet and so they will check raise bluff
you. Am I right in thinking this way?
And also about a minute later a very similar situation pops up on table
3, where we're dealt AJ again and raise the button limper(once again
loose passive fish)in the BB and he calles. Flop comes KT6 and here you
say that although the board is good for a Cbet we should remember the
loose passive player is never folding a pair and so you would probably
just check. So why do you encouraage the Cbet in the first situation and
not the second? is it that in the first instance we're in position and
we assume opponent's check on the flop is weakness? but then again
passive players love to CR rather than lead out.
I remember previously you suggested in your 'Building the basics' series
that betting out of position is a good way of countering the
disadvantage of being oop, so why not here?
Please tell me if I'm thinking along the right lines or if I'm just plain mad,
I think c-betting is our best option in both situations.
In hand 1 (3-bet pot), while the fish isn't going to fold a pair on the flop, we can 2 barrel the turn and get most of his 8x and 6x hands to fold. He's not going to fold a King, but he will fold worse hands.
While I agree we're likely not going to get bluffed off the best hand on the turn, that's not a certainty.
If he has a hand like AQ or JQ, he might stab the turn OOP just hoping to take it down.
Betting in hand 1 effectively makes the hand easier to play, especially vs someone who isn't going to be C/R bluffing the flop very often.
Also, in a 3-bet pot, people are less likely to continue with some of their weaker pairs beyond the flop. Our 3-betting range is strong, and he's going to be worried about us having a hand like AK or AA a lot, and we will get him off something like 98 on most turns.
--
In hand 2, I think you're absolutely correct that c-betting is best. We have a gutshot to the nuts, and a lot of fold equity on both the flop and turn vs both better hands and hands with equity vs our hand.
I think checking the turn flop is not good, and disagree w/ what I said on video.
Likely the reason I said to check the flop in hand 2 was because some fish just won't fold flop or turn with much, and you really don't want to 3-barrel OOP into someone whose just not folding. However, with AJ I think we have enough equity to bet the flop and most turns.
With a hand like 77 I think on KT2 i'd just check / fold OOP vs a call-happy player, as we rarely pick up equity on future streets to make
our c-bet outright profitable.
--
I want to clarify something about c-betting dry boards vs fish:
Cbetting dry boards is still a good play vs fish, but you need to recognize what their range looks like on the flop. If they're calling with weak hands on the flop, you need to be prepared to bet again on good turns / rivers for your range.
So lets say the flop is J72r, and your fishy opponent checks. You should almost 100% c-bet here with a hand like KQ. Even if he calls the flop with any pair (J8, 67, 44, A2), there's a ton of turn/rivers that are just going to make his life very difficult.
You can fire a double barrel as a semibluff on a 9, T, A, and we can valuebet a K/Q as well. Hands like 67, 44, even JT are going to have a tough time calling on a plenty number of these turns, and even if he calls, we can improve on the river.
OOP - I would still c-bet J72r, but keep in mind it's harder to bluff OOP than IP.
The most important thing to keep in mind is how your opponent plays. If he's just the type of fish who isn't folding ANYTHING by the river - well then don't bluff him and just value-bet the crap out of him because hes clearly terrible.
However, if you see your opponent check/calling your flop bets with really weak holdings, take advantage of that and start barreling him aggressively on cards that threaten a majority of his range. You'll quickly realize which players you can c-bet profitably against, and which you cant.
Offline
Basic User
Hi,
I didn't watch this and I'm not planning to do, but I like the idea of series and I hope this will not only be 6max NL.
Plus Team
Hi NotoriousMK,
The goal would be to have each coach do a review in their preferred discipline
-Evan: HU
-Ansky/Ike: 6 Max
-Justin/Charder: Tourney
-Matusow: O8/Horse/Mixed
-Foucault: WSOP Main Events
etc.
Basic User
chris really like the format of the backseat driver videos, do u plan to have other pros do these videos as well in there specialist area ?
one part of your analysis that that i didnt agree with was your criticism of mjws reraise size, as first off all he did not raise to $1.75 but raised to $2, meaning that his reraise was only 3.25x his original open. even if he did raise to $1.75, i think $6.50 is a good reraise size, being 3.7 his original open. my standard reraise OOP is 3.75 my opponents open 100BB deep, as i think that if i make it 3x (which you were suggesting) he can peel profitible in position w/ KTs for example, and also think i have a lot more fold equity when i am 3 betting light opponents who open the button a lot.
i also think you narrowed your opponents range to much, saying that he only he probably only continues w/ AK and TT+, i dont think most opponents are not folding hands like KQ and AJ, thinking they have to defend their cut off open with a hand near the top of their range such as AJ, and against someone 3 betting light a decent percentage (dont know if mjw006 does) it is probably correct to do so.
judging by the other pros on this site, Dani's standard OOP 3 bet is usually 3.75x the opening (11BB to a 3BB open) and ike favours a full 4x 3bet OOP in some of his videos.
also later in the video you say you like his $2.5 reraise to a $0.75 open, 3.3x his opponents raise, even though this is actually a larger reraise in relation to the open.
what is your standard reraise OOP, and do you still critisize the $6.50 reraise to the $2 open, or even a $1.75 open. also what is your standard reraise OOP in relation to your opponents open?
would appriciate any feedback
Premium User
Nice concept,
but i think not designed for tournaments, as the Nr of playable hands decreases with shallow stacksizes and becomes somewhat like autoplay ---> boring. Maybe selected hands via replayer would make sense for tournaments and the series then could also easily be categorized in different themes like early /late stages, playing stacksizes, final table play.....
I also would appreciate to analyze difficult hands after the session more mathematically with pokerstove...In this video would be the value of KT vs possible draws and weaker/better value hands on the turn...
PS: H@LLINGOL the only good player with his image at PS, and ADZ doesnt look really diffrent from his in real...
Plus Team
Hi Dean,
I'll go through these 1-by-1
1) Yes - Pros will review videos in their areas of expertise. See 1 post above.
2) If the CO opened to $2 and not $1.75 (my apologies), I do not mind $6.5 as much since our opponents may continue with a looser range. My default is 12xbb vs 3.5x opens.
-To my recollection this was Hero's first 3B at table. Also this is NL 50 - where most players do not 3B wide ranges with any frequency. Villain cannot conclude Hero is 3B light yet - and vs a std 3B range, we WANT our villain peeling KTs - since much of our range dominates here.
-I'm of the belief that very few villains at NL 25/ NL 50 will put you to difficult decisions, as a result i'd be more inclined to keep the pot smaller pre-flop and exploit post-flop advantages.
-I'm also of the belief that people don't tend to peel larger 3Bs with dominated hands as openly as they will slightly smaller 3Bs.
3) Dani and Ike may open to 3.75x + on their 3Bs, but their 3B range is likely wider than MJWs, and their opponents are more likely to put Hero in tough spots post-flop peeling wide. This is not the case at NL 50 IMO.
4) Simple SPR with KK - Based on stack sizes villain cannot peel profitably to set mine for this ammount, but can theoretically for any smaller size.
5) My 3B size is generally 12x the BB regardless of my opponents open if the open is 3x, 3.5x.
-However my 3B size is also position / opponent dependent at the small stakes. If my opponent will peel 14x the BB - i'll make it 14x. If he will only call 10x with the top of his range which i beat - 10x it is.
Is this exploitable? sure! Has anyone expoloited it yet? Nope.
That being said - $6.50 is fine over $2 CO open. I thought he made it $1.75 - in which case i prefer $6.
Plus Team
Hi SosMSos,
1) I apologize for not being able to put PokerStove numbers on the screen. I'm a post-production Camtasia donk, but i'll make sure the real pros can get the $ up on the screen.
FWIW
-Hero's equity vs a range of "JTo+ desicribed in video"
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.880% 27.29% 08.59% 5752 1810.00 { KTo }
Hand 1: 64.120% 55.53% 08.59% 11704 1810.00 { JJ, ATs, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo, KTo+, QTo+ }
-Hero's equity vs my perceived range Villains 'Check raising range'
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 18.287% 16.58% 01.70% 2364 243.00 { KTo }
Hand 1: 81.713% 80.01% 01.70% 11406 243.00 { JJ, ATs, KJs+, QJs, ATo, KJo+, QJo }
-Hero's Equity vs Villain's 'OMG I HAS HIGH CARD AND DONT SLOWPLAY' Range
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.572% 51.71% 13.86% 6758 1811.00 { KTo }
Hand 1: 34.428% 20.57% 13.86% 2688 1811.00 { KTs, QTs+, JTs, KTo, QTo+, JTo }
If I were too asume the % he holds each range:
65% C/R Range
25% JTo+ Range
10% OMG range
EDIT: I have yet to find H@E or ADZ sitting at NL 100-NL400 =(
Plus Team
Hey Chris.
First of all i just want to say thanks for doing that. It was very eye opening and woke me up to a couple of things i can stitch up
On the 3bet sizing early on, i tend to make it that size against the $2 open because i will be OOP post flop, and prefer to nullify the positional edge through pot size a little.
Thankfully you missed a couple of hands where i was playing like a monkey, lol.
And thanks for not berating me much, lol. I am currently still in that god awful downswing and am currently down 10 BI @ 50NL so am back to the 25NL, as you saw it was well started when i did the vid. (my winrate had actually dropped from about 6.5BB/100 3days before hand to 4BB/100 when i did the vid)
On the final hand i actually think i made a bit of a desperate call and in hindsight i think it was prob bad, but worked out good.! lol.
Any more thoughts from everyone are certainly welcome, as you all know, i love you guys!!! (No not that much Alf, i know the gay joke will come).
But again thanks very much Chris, i think you once again have helped me significantly in moving forward!!!
Talk soon all~!
Basic User
Hi Chris,
I like the concept alot. It will be helpful for the teachers to evaluate how well students are understanding the material, and serves as a review for the student. Also, it allows for indepth coverage of typical villian's tendencies at a given limit. I got alot out of this video, and look forward to seeing more.
Basic User
Hey Chris, quick question concerning oop play: A hand occurs for mjw where he defends his SB with AJo to a 16/14's co open. I agree a fold would be correct here against villian's range, but am slightly in the gray area when it comes to being against a LAG opponent. If a 35/30 opens from the co and mjw were to look down at AJo again, what factors determine whether he should call versus 3bet? I know the obvious answer is "is villian capable of calling the 3bet with hands worse than AJo," but if you are 3betting in this spot, what hands are good to throw in as calling against this type of villian? What about a TAG playing 23/19 or something? I have NO idea whether or not to call or 3bet here. I would think a call would be better against the 23/19, but it's hard to really maximize value off an A high flop without turning your hand face up. I sometimes feel that I level myself HARD. PLEASE HELP!
Plus Team
Hey ESPKid,
Short of saying "it depends" - i'll start with some basic things to ask yourself:
How does villain play post-flop in 3b pots?
How wide is he defending to 3-bets?
What are his post-flop tendencies? Does he barrel a lot? Does he like to bluff scare cards?
How does he play in position without the lead?
With no history / read - you need to actually put yourself in some of these marginal situations and gain some reads.
If he's 35/30 and super barrel happy, I like flatting AJo. On Axx or Jxx flop, he's going to bet and barrel a lot, so we can c/c down and extract value vs his wide range.
If you 3bet him a few times and he keeps flatting and shows down something marginal, you can 3b AJo for value
--
The truth is there's no clear cut answer for whether we should 3-bet or flat a hand like AJo in the SB vs a CO open.
I'd say vs most people you're best of 3-betting and then betting top pair for value post-flop. Most players are 4-betting AK pre, so AQ is really the only hand you value-cut yourself vs on Axx flop, and on Jxx flops you will stack all worse Jx hands in his range.
However - you sorta need to just make a decision vs an opponent about how you want your overall strategy vs him to be - and go with that.
Premium User
Hi Chris, I hope you're well
I've got a question having watched part 1 of your Back door driver
video. It's about when to Cbet and when not to Cbet against a loose
passive player. 47 minutes into the video on table 1 we're dealt AJo on
the button and 3 bet the loose passive fish who calls us. Flop comes K86
and he checks. It's a great board for a Cbet as everybody knows and you
approve of the Cbet. But we also know that the fish will not fold a
pair, so is checking also good at this point considering we have
showdown value and opponent is so weak we're not worried about getting
bluffed? I mean against this type of player are we ever gonna get a
better hand (i.e mainly a pair) to fold? or indeed is that a question I
should be asking myself everytime I Cbet?
Having watched Foucalt's flop fundamental series and AMA's LLNLH
essentials series my understandong is that dry flops are good for a
continuation bet against intermediate players, but not against fish
because they call if they have anything as little as bottom pair, and
also not against good thinking players because they recognize it's a dry
board and that you're likely to Cbet and so they will check raise bluff
you. Am I right in thinking this way?
And also about a minute later a very similar situation pops up on table
3, where we're dealt AJ again and raise the button limper(once again
loose passive fish)in the BB and he calles. Flop comes KT6 and here you
say that although the board is good for a Cbet we should remember the
loose passive player is never folding a pair and so you would probably
just check. So why do you encouraage the Cbet in the first situation and
not the second? is it that in the first instance we're in position and
we assume opponent's check on the flop is weakness? but then again
passive players love to CR rather than lead out.
I remember previously you suggested in your 'Building the basics' series
that betting out of position is a good way of countering the
disadvantage of being oop, so why not here?
Please tell me if I'm thinking along the right lines or if I'm just plain mad,
Thanks again
Plus Team
Hey eyesandlows,
I think c-betting is our best option in both situations.
In hand 1 (3-bet pot), while the fish isn't going to fold a pair on the flop, we can 2 barrel the turn and get most of his 8x and 6x hands to fold. He's not going to fold a King, but he will fold worse hands.
While I agree we're likely not going to get bluffed off the best hand on the turn, that's not a certainty.
If he has a hand like AQ or JQ, he might stab the turn OOP just hoping to take it down.
Betting in hand 1 effectively makes the hand easier to play, especially vs someone who isn't going to be C/R bluffing the flop very often.
Also, in a 3-bet pot, people are less likely to continue with some of their weaker pairs beyond the flop. Our 3-betting range is strong, and he's going to be worried about us having a hand like AK or AA a lot, and we will get him off something like 98 on most turns.
--
In hand 2, I think you're absolutely correct that c-betting is best. We have a gutshot to the nuts, and a lot of fold equity on both the flop and turn vs both better hands and hands with equity vs our hand.
I think checking the turn flop is not good, and disagree w/ what I said on video.
Likely the reason I said to check the flop in hand 2 was because some fish just won't fold flop or turn with much, and you really don't want to 3-barrel OOP into someone whose just not folding. However, with AJ I think we have enough equity to bet the flop and most turns.
With a hand like 77 I think on KT2 i'd just check / fold OOP vs a call-happy player, as we rarely pick up equity on future streets to make
our c-bet outright profitable.
--
I want to clarify something about c-betting dry boards vs fish:
Cbetting dry boards is still a good play vs fish, but you need to recognize what their range looks like on the flop. If they're calling with weak hands on the flop, you need to be prepared to bet again on good turns / rivers for your range.
So lets say the flop is J72r, and your fishy opponent checks. You should almost 100% c-bet here with a hand like KQ. Even if he calls the flop with any pair (J8, 67, 44, A2), there's a ton of turn/rivers that are just going to make his life very difficult.
You can fire a double barrel as a semibluff on a 9, T, A, and we can valuebet a K/Q as well. Hands like 67, 44, even JT are going to have a tough time calling on a plenty number of these turns, and even if he calls, we can improve on the river.
OOP - I would still c-bet J72r, but keep in mind it's harder to bluff OOP than IP.
The most important thing to keep in mind is how your opponent plays. If he's just the type of fish who isn't folding ANYTHING by the river - well then don't bluff him and just value-bet the crap out of him because hes clearly terrible.
However, if you see your opponent check/calling your flop bets with really weak holdings, take advantage of that and start barreling him aggressively on cards that threaten a majority of his range. You'll quickly realize which players you can c-bet profitably against, and which you cant.