Phil Gordon’s biography seems more like a Hollywood script than an actual path towards poker greatness. A child prodigy who entered college at age 15, he leapt into the world of technology just in time to hit the boom of the 1990’s. His fledgling company grew and was sold to Cisco Systems for a whopping $95 million. With his share of the cash in hand, Phil gave all of his possessions to charity and took a trip that makes any vacation pale in comparison: a 5 year crisscrossing of the planet that covered 50 countries and involved experiences ranging from climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro to living among the locals in Bali. Phil then exploded onto the poker map with an impressive showing at the 2001 World Series of Poker. He cemented his place in poker legend and lore by securing World Poker Tour championships and becoming the host of the Bravo network’s Celebrity Poker Showdown. In addition to his long list of life accomplishments, Phil Gordon also boasts the titles of author (recently released his 2nd poker book, Phil Gordon’s Little Green Book) and entrepreneur (leader of Expert Insight DVD/media). Oh, did we mention that he spent a huge amount of time raising money for cancer research? Is there anything this guy hasn’t done? Well, he hasn’t sat down for an interview with me… until now. We ask him all about his life, travels, and future in this exclusive interview.
John: You didn’t take the normal track to end up being a professional poker player…
PHIL: Yeah, well. Poker for me has always been a hobby, not a profession. I guess my first big “coming out party” was the 2001 World Series where I finished 4th in the championship event. Shortly thereafter I pretty much dedicated myself to playing as much poker, and learning as much about the game, as possible. Before that I was not overly successful or spending a great deal of time playing.
John: You started off entering college early, follow the technology route, and you cash in and do extremely well financially …
PHIL: Well, that is overstated. Almost everyone thinks that I made a lot more money in that venture than I did. You’ve gotta realize that I was one of 50 employees in the company. I was the first employee, but still one of fifty. We had venture capitalists, we had investment money … When it says that we got bought out for 95 million, don’t even think for one minute that I have anywhere near 95 million dollars. Nowhere close. I made enough to retire. It wasn’t like it was 20 million dollars. That’s crazy.
John: You did make enough to take a trip of the lifetime. Tell us about the trip -- what made you decide to take it, what was the highlight for you, what will you never forget …
PHIL: Travel is flight and fancy. Some flight, some fancy. In my case, it was no different. Part of my trip was to get away from some of the bad situations that I was in, in the United States in terms of my girlfriend at the time. I wanted to see the world. That’s the flight part. The fancy part is that I wanted to get out there and make a difference and really find out what the world’s all about. There are two reasons people give away everything to Goodwill, pack a backpack, and book a one-way ticket to Africa, and I’m no different than anyone else in that respect. Um, I was gone for a little better than 4 years: spent almost a year in Africa, four months in South America, six months in Australia, four months in Southeast Asia, a bunch of time in Europe, a month in Alaska, and everywhere else. And over that time I was just backpacking, meeting people, seeing how they lived, eating their foods and immersing myself into their culture. It was definitely a life changing experience. Over that course of time some of the highlights for me include climbing Mount Kilimanjaro, scuba diving with Great White Sharks in South Africa, the month I spent in Ethiopia is a month that I’ll never forget, doing the Inca trail, and the Amazon River basin. We hiked the Amazon for a couple of days, then built a raft out of balsa wood trees and floated down the river spearing fish to eat. So it was a fantastic experience. The six months that I spent in Australia I bought a Land Cruiser and drove 20,000 miles by myself all the way in a loop. Saw the Great Barrier Reef and had all kinds of fun with the Aussies. All kinds of fun, adventures, and somewhat dangerous – but always entertaining and educational – experiences.
John: You’ve got to learn so much about the world, and so much about yourself, in a trip like that. That is the ultimate …
PHIL: Well, one thing about going by yourself is that you never have to compromise. I did exactly what I wanted to do, when I wanted to do it, and how I wanted to do it. I think that was very valuable. I think it would not have been the same trip had I gone with a friend, or had to have some level of compromise. Of course, I was fortunate to have more resources than most of the people that I met on the road, in terms of finances, but I led a very meager lifestyle during that time. I think the entire year that I spent in Africa I think I spent about $16,000. I mean it was not a lot of money.
John: You weren’t spending your nights in lavish hotels or anything.
PHIL: No, no. It was youth hostels, it was home-stays, camping, it was a low standard but a very high quality of life, if that makes any sense to you.
John: Oh, yeah. I understand. It was probably better than staying in Americanized hotels or taking some kind of organized tour with guides. That was not what you were looking for.
PHIL: No, that is not what I was looking for. I was looking for the authentic, real world experiences rather than the sort-of canned, you know, every minute of every day is planed. Those trips certainly have their uses. It is better to do those trips than not do a trip at all. But that is not the kind of experience that I wanted. I bought one-way tickets everywhere that I went, because I didn’t want to have to catch a flight. If I was having a great time I would stay longer. If I was being miserable, I could head to the airport and go to a place that I’d never been. I did that quite often.
John: And you had no timeline? You didn’t have a final destination in mind?
PHIL: No.
John: What would drive you to point A to point B, then? Was it a whim, an inclination – oh, I’ll try Bali next?
PHIL: Well, I’d meet people along the way. There is a whole circuit of world travelers out there. Most of Europe, especially the Dutch, the Germans, and the Brits, are venerate world travelers. They all take one or two years after University and go traveling around the world. So I would meet up with them at bars and restaurants and doing touristy things, and I’d make friends. Since I was traveling alone I was forced to make friends. And, you know, the conversation almost always turns to “where did you go, what did you see, was this place fun, and where did you stay?” What you’d expect from a group of travelers comparing stories and experiences. To the time I’d be in Malaysia or wherever, and I’d run into a group that’d just come from Vietnam, or Bali, and they’d say “You gotta get down to Bali.” I’d say, “That sounds like a really great idea. I’ll do that.” I’d just go to the airport and buy a ticket to Bali.
John: You know what, I’m almost more envious of that than I am the poker accomplishments. That experience of travel is unbelievable …
PHIL: And I would say that despite all of the accomplishments in poker, including the best selling books and the TV show and all of that, the travel experiences are more valuable, personally.
John: So with all of the poker accomplishments, the education, the technology with Cisco buying you out, the travel, the TV show, what is the biggest single accomplishment of your life? What are you the most proud of?
PHIL: Um, I’ll make it more general rather than point at one particular thing. The thing that I’m most proud of is making the most out of every situation that I’ve been presented with. A lot of people made a lot of money in the internet industry in the mid 90’s, but not everyone had the balls to take that money and go do something important for themselves. There have been hundreds of people who’ve participated in the world of professional poker, but not all of them have worked as hard as I’ve worked over the course of the last couple of years.
John: Speaking of your accomplishments, how did you end up being the host of Celebrity Poker Showdown?
PHIL: I was on a double date with Hank Azaria, my girlfriend at the time, and one of her friends. Her friend knew Hank and we all went out on a double date together, but I didn’t know Hank at the time. Over the course of the weekend we made friends, and Hank said that he had buddies that he played in a Sunday night poker game with in LA: Josh Malina who plays Will Bailey on West Wing, and his friend Andy who’s been in television for a long time. The World Poker Tour had just come out, and they were thinking about doing this show with celebrities playing poker for charity. I had just won World Poker Tour in Aruba, three final tables in two years at the World Series, and Hank said: “Hey, you seem to have a good personality. You seem like you’d be a good fit for the show. Can I give them your phone number?” I was like ‘yeah, here’s my number.’ Josh and Andy took me to breakfast the next week, and they offered me the show and that was pretty much it. They ended up interviewing Phil Hellmuth and Annie Duke for the show at the same time, but they eventually went with me for one reason or another.
John: Do you think any of those celebrities have serious poker skills?
PHIL: There are a lot of great players in the world of celebrities. Tobey MacGuire is great; Ben Affleck is obviously very talented, although I don’t know how much he plays anymore; James Woods; Hank Azaria is a great player; Matt Perry has some talent; Sarah Rue; Shannon Elizabeth; Jennifer Tilley – Yeah. Lots.
John: Where do you see the business end of poker heading? There is a lot of talk about poker players getting more organized.
PHIL: I think the players do need to get organized in one form or another. There is this business with the World Poker Tour and their player releases; it’s just another prime reason the players have to have a voice. And I don’t know how that’s going to happen, because there does not seem to be one player with enough money, time, and energy to put it together. Certainly the players are not going to trust a non-player. I don’t really know how it’s going to happen, but I’m hopeful someone can step up to the plate and make it so. I don’t hold much faith out, though. Poker is an individual sport, and the players as such, behave like individuals. It’s going to be very difficult to get them all on the same page and agreeing to everything. If like 5 or 10 of the players just don’t like the way it is going to go, they are going to walk away and play in the tournament anyway and it is not going to give us any ‘bite’ or any real authority in the world of poker. I’d love to see it happen, but I just don’t think it can in the short-term.
John: Right…
PHIL: As far as corporate goes, I think that over the course of the next few years we’ll see corporate America really step up to the plate and start sponsoring more players. I’ve already seen it as one of the players fortunate enough to get enough TV time to have some name recognition, I definitely have corporate sponsorships and endorsements, and television commercials and such both last year and this upcoming year. I think we’ll continue to see that increase. I think we’ll see the number of players in the game increase. The online sites will continue to do extraordinarily well and grow. The tournaments themselves will do well. The World Series of Poker this year is due for 75 hundred plus players, and it would not surprise me at all for them to reach 8000 or more.
John: I was down at the World Series this past year, and you really seem to enjoy yourself at the table and away from it. I could tell that you do enjoy poker and the people that surround poker and play poker.
PHIL: The one thing that I’ve realized is that I’ve been extraordinarily lucky in my life. I’ve been granted a freedom and flexibility that not everyone will get to experience, and I try to make the most of it. If I’m not having fun doing something, then it is not worth my time. That’s just the way it is. If I’m not fully engaged, fully prepared, and fully enjoying myself, then I’m going to change up and do something else. One of the reasons that I have not been playing in as many tournaments that I used to is that I’m enjoying some other things right now. That doesn’t mean that I’ve given up on poker. I play enough tournaments to stay active – I made two final tables in the World Series of Poker this past year, I made the final table at the live event at the Wynn, and I had a great 2005 with winning a couple hundred thousand in prize money. I didn’t invest 300 days playing poker like some of my contemporaries.
John: So what are the things going on right now that are detracting from your poker?
PHIL: Well I have two main distractions. The first is my Bad Beat on Cancer, doing cancer research and prevention fundraisers. I’m doing a lot of work for them. I pledged to raise one million dollars this year. In fact, the three phone calls that I made prior to talking with you were to charity-related benefits. I’ve donated a lot of private tutorials; I’ve done two already today. People who donate $500 to the cancer research and prevention foundation get a half-hour phone lesson with me.
John: Oh, great! How do our readers find out about that? Do you have a website?
PHIL: Yeah, it is getting publicized. There are P.R. people on it. There is a website at www.badbeatoncancer.org. We are doing a big celebrity fundraiser in LA. There is a fundraiser in April, May, and June. And the Bad Beat on Cancer is being supported by the World Series of Poker is going to be July and August. I don’t know where that one million dollars is going to come from, but I’m working hard everyday to be sure that people know about the initiative and the good work that we are doing.
The second major thing that is taking up my time is my new DVD company. Expert Insight is a new educational media company, and I’m the CEO. Our first project was Final table Poker, my DVD. Our second DVD is released in a couple of weeks; it is Andy Block’s Beating Blackjack. Andy was a member of the MIT blackjack team. In his video, in a very similar way to my video, you inside his mind. He counts cards, he plays perfect basic strategy, and as he works with a blackjack team. Very similar to the MIT blackjack team that he was on. So that’s pretty cool. We have a golf video coming out that we are shooting in March. We are going to do 5 or 6 more this year on various topics. The company is growing very quickly, and it is going extraordinarily well. Being the CEO of a growing media company is not something to leave a lot of time for everything else.
John: Turning to your latest book, what made you decide to write The Little Green Book and why should people buy it rather than some of the others on the market today?
PHIL: Well, my first book came out in October 2004, and that was Poker: The Real Deal. That was primarily aimed at the audience that was watching Celebrity Poker Showdown. It was for people that don’t have a lot of experience playing poker who just want to know what it is all about. I call it the poker lifestyle bible. That sold about 125,000 the first year, which is pretty amazing in hardback. Very quickly after that book was published, I got a lot of feedback from customers and people saying that they wanted to know more about No Limit Texas Hold ‘Em. So I got the idea for the Little Green Book... Luckily Simon and Schuster were behind the book. I wrote the Little Green Book over the course of about 2 and ½ months. It is 286 pages of No Limit Hold ‘Em strategy exactly as I play. I don’t contend, as you know, to be the best player in the world. I certainly don’t think that I am. But I do think that I have a good shot at being the best teacher in the world. In the book I lay it out very clearly, succinctly, and hopefully in a way that they can understand some principles of No Limit Hold ‘Em that they can’t find anywhere else.
John: A good example of that, for me, when I was reading through is when you talk about a huge lay down. You had a hunch that Phil Hellmuth was holding pocket Aces and you folded pocket Kings pre-flop. I think that exposes a key point in poker. Everyone thinks it is about being aggressive, but you can make it to final tables by making great lay-downs more often …
PHIL: The way I like to say it is that a poker player’s favorite 4 letter word starts with “F”. (Laugh)
John: (laughing) I like that saying. I guess they edit that out when you say it on TV.
PHIL: Yeah, folding is critical to success. But aggression and all of that stuff is too. I like to think that the Little Green Book and the Expert DVD together can turn bad players into good players, good players into great players.
John: And you play online at Full Tilt …
PHIL: I am one of Team Full Tilt. I’m one of the 10, and proud to be so.
John: Do you get a chance to play online often?
PHIL: I play about 5 to 10 hours per week. Part of the deal with Full tilt is that we play low limits. I play .50/1, .25/.50, I played 2 hours of free money yesterday. You know, it’s Learn, Chat, and Play with the pros. It’s the only real place online that you can do so.
John: You mentioned the Bad Beat on Cancer. You and a buddy raised money for that in a very interesting way. You called it the ultimate sports adventure?
PHIL: That was the biggest boondoggle in the history of mankind. Rafe has been my best friend for 15 years. A couple of years ago we decided to buy an RV and put everything in storage, again. We took off on the ultimate sports adventure. We stared off at the Super Bowl in San Diego, drove 42,000 miles to 140 sports events in 40 different states over the course of a single year. We started at the Super Bowl and ended at the Super Bowl. In between we saw every major event in sports. We saw every major trophy awarded in sports including all 3 Triple Crown races, the 3 golf Majors (Masters, PHILA, US Open), US Open Tennis, the Little League World Series, the Stanley Cup, the College World Series, the professional (MLB) World Series, the NBA finals, Daytona & Indianapolis, the World Series of poker was obviously in there, umm, the World Figure Skating Championship, the US Ping Pong Championships, we played the top 25 public golf courses, we saw 26 baseball stadiums … and we ate an enormous amount of crappy stadium food.
John: OK, that is it. It is official. That is the “ultimate sports tour.”
PHIL: If you want to see more, www.ultimatesportsadventure.com.
John: So, how is your golf game?
PHIL: Golf game is getting better. I just joined a country club here in Vegas. I’ve been playing more recently, but it’s hard to find time. I’m working hard at it. I’m going back to play in Michael Jordan’s celebrity golf tournament again this year. I’m looking forward to playing better than I did last year!
John: And you are in a relationship. Time must be a factor.
PHIL: I’ve had a girlfriend for a few years. She’s great. She lives in Vancouver so we don’t get to see a lot of each other. Who knows, that might be changing soon.
John: With your hectic schedule is must be tough.
PHIL: Yeah, but she’s a corporate lawyer so she’s really busy too – mergers and acquisitions. High-powered lawyer in a firm up there, so she does not have a lot of time anyway. We’ve been dating for quite a few years and are doing well.
John: I appreciate your time so much. Great stuff. Anything else you’d like to add?
PHIL: I’d just ask you to visit the Bad Beat on cancer website: www.badbeatoncancer.org. Check that out. I’ve donated a lot of autographed memorabilia: autographed DVDs, autographed copies of my book, personal poker lessons. I’d love for people to check it out.
In addition to being a poker enthusiast, John is a certified Counselor in the state of Pennsylvania and a National Certified Counselor (NCC). He has a Master of Arts degree in Counseling from West Virginia University, and a Bachelor’s degree in Psychology with a minor in Sociology from Lock Haven University. You can find out more about the psychology of poker from “the Poker Counselor” at carlisle14@hotmail.com.
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